Patrick Donohoe

When Selfish Is Okay: Selfishness From A Perspective Of Abundance With Gary Pinkerton

TWS 69 | Abundance Mindset


Selfishness isn’t always bad. When your selfishness comes from a perspective of abundance, it becomes the kind that gives value to people instead of taking something away from them. That is just one of the amazing facets of the abundance mindset that we don’t get to hear about every day. You can hear these facets resound mightily now in this conversation between Patrick Donohoe and his amazing guest, fellow wealth strategist, Gary Pinkerton. Listen in as they take a deep dive into a far-ranging conversation on abundance, empathy, growth and success.

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When Selfish Is Okay: Selfishness From A Perspective Of Abundance With Gary Pinkerton

On my show, I try to focus being an optimist and Gary‘s goal to be in the title of the show. I want people to focus on creating their own success and seeking inward for their security, self-worth and guidance. Continue to do self-improvement so that you can continue to move to a higher level. I want to surround myself with people and teach people how to set up all aspects of their lives so they’re not beholden to somebody else. They’re not worried somebody else is going to take something away from them. They can focus on what their goals are and get the happiness from inside, not from outside.

You’re onto something that a lot of people try to figure out by going to the outside, whether it’s a business success, investment success or more money. I don’t know about you, but in my experience with myself and with people, you get to those moments that you thought were going to be existential. It’s like, “That’s it.” For me, I’m curious about myself. There’s a huge part of me that’s like other people. A little bit of me is crazy, but I’m always curious about why I do what I do, why I think what I think, why am I compelled to do this, compelled to do that?

I’m curious about the experience of others and what they’re trying to get as well because I’ve made the connection and I’m not sure when it was. I have to continue to make the connection. The best for me comes from providing the best to others. For instance, my kids, talk about altruism. As you define raising kids, but you put a lot of money into it. There are lots of resources given. It’s like a smile, a small achievement. It’s worth everything. I look at how easy it is for me to experience success by having a conversation with my kids.

It’s simpler than people realize to get what they want. It’s this never-ending pursuit. It doesn’t end. It’s not like you accomplish or achieve a milestone and suddenly that’s it. It’s this constant improvement and growth. I don’t think it ever ends. I don’t think the material world, the outside world will ever conform to exactly what you want if that’s the condition that you require in order for you to be happy or fulfilled.

You’ve said a few pretty interesting things there. I agree that the outside world is never going to conform to the perfect result of what you’re looking for. That’s a pursuit that is guaranteed to bring sadness. If you’re looking for validation for your self-worth on the outside. I do agree and we’ve talked about this before. You have an amazing perspective on this. I’ve struggled with this idea of individualism and being uniquely selfish. You make some good points that the actions we take in doing charity for others, helping other people and helping our children succeed is a selfless act. Even though we’ve been led to believe that being selfish is bad. If you act in your own best interest, you’re showing your absolute best to other people. You’re adding the most value to other people.

There’s a way in which you can frame selfishness as a bad thing and a way you can frame it as a good thing. There’s a cool book called Power vs. Force that I’ve read a couple of times by David R. Hawkins. He passed away a number of years ago, but something that resonated with me is that there’s this force energy that’s out there. It comes down to taking more than you give. The selfishness that comes from that mentality where it’s a net zero, meaning you take more than you ever contribute. It doesn’t lead to anywhere great. Most people can judge as far as selfishness is concerned in that arena. It crosses a line at some point.

The line starts when you produce more than you consume. You contribute more than you take. You’re always going to take. If you’re contributing, serving, giving, influencing, improving others, it’s way more gratifying than when it’s net zero or net negative. It’s way more gratifying. That gratification is you experiencing it. There’s that line that some people cross, but I go to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs where people are driven for their own survival, their own experience. It starts with physiological needs. It goes to safety needs. It goes to relationship needs, which other needs. It goes to self-esteem and ego needs.

If you're looking for validation of your self-worth from the outside, it’s guaranteed to bring you sadness. Click To Tweet

People recognizing their worth and value in the world, which sometimes they need to be a little bit egotistical or selfish to discover, “I’m special. I’m unique. I can contribute something.” It crosses into that self-actualization arena where it’s not about you. It’s not about the self or the ego. It’s about what’s right and what’s good. That’s where a lot of the fulfillment of life comes from when you get there. At the same time, it’s like you have to go through those other stages first. You can’t just skip right to self-actualization and enlightened self-interest.

You have to grow up through them. There’s no shortcut. As you were talking about that, I thought back to the awesome book about growth mindset. It was from Carol Dweck. It’s an amazing book. I related it to this thinking that selfishness from a scarcity mindset, if your mindset is wired to be scarce, then your version of selfish is, “If he gets that, I don’t get it. If that person gets to speak, I don’t get to speak.” If you were using selfishness from what I now understand Ayn Rand and others in her culture, believed was that it’s from a perspective of abundance. If you give more, you get more. It’s okay to be selfish in that perspective. An example is I want to travel the world. If you help enough people on all corners of the world, all around the globe, you can do that. Your selfish motivation is coming from a perspective of abundance.

Ayn Rand is way smarter than I ever was. She had some intellectual people that surrounded her. By no means am I going to ever try to put words in her mouth or try to describe what she means. What it means to me, and I think where she was coming from, is this place where altruism is where there are force and coercion. Where people are forced to give up or coerced where it’s negative. There’s a force. There’s not a voluntary act. When there’s a voluntary act to produce, to serve and to give, that’s when you have a net positive, not when you’re forced to do it. That’s what she meant. That’s how I’ve come to interpret it in a simpleton’s way.

We’re talking about this after the general election and probably several weeks before this thing is called. As a person who loves the republic, I’m quite inspired by the fact that our judicial system is going to allow this to play out whichever way it goes. We’re in trouble if we don’t allow it to play out and gain the confidence, but that’s on the US republic side of things. There’s so much passion, so much hate. People get in that situation when they are in a position of fear. They’re afraid that the outside entity that has been providing for them, whether that’s food, shelter, clothing or its sense of worth. Going back to what we were talking about at the beginning, I’ve experienced that people who are confident, they have the self-confidence. They can provide for themselves. If they want something different, they go get it or they figure out how to get it. That’s different than being in a complete state of fear when you believe that you will be provided for by somebody else, and now that’s in question.

It’s been an interesting observation of how this election and 2020 in general is the year where there are a lot of stirred up emotions and energy that is chaotic in a sense. That what amplifies it is social media. First, there are two dominant fears that people have. Number one, they don’t want to change. Number two, they don’t want to be wrong. That’s seen everywhere. You try to speak rationally to somebody and even one hint of them having to change or them being wrong and you being right, it ignites a bonfire.

I look at our ability to have rational conversations, and it’s seldom when you have two differing points of view. They’re able to come together, have a rational argument, a civil argument and go their separate ways without begrudging one another. I look at that type of person, that self-actualized person where they’re not defined by somebody else or they’re not defined by the opposite of what somebody else believes. They’re defined based on their own internal sense of worth, fulfillment and identification. That doesn’t come easily. The environment that we’re in right now is very ego and selfish driven. It’s not like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs again. It’s in the self-esteem where people want to be validated. People want to feel good.

They want to be a part of a group. That’s what motivates them. It’s hard to get them to figure out a different way. I’m not going to go down that path. At the same time, we all get caught up in it. Families and close relationships are impacted by it. By no means am I saying that I’m enlightened or I’m not affected by what people say or do. I try to be in there as much as possible, but the moments are few and far in between. I am impacted. At the same time, I try to catch myself and be able to rationally think through it, and also have a discussion rather than have banter back and forth.

TWS 69 | Abundance Mindset

Abundance Mindset: If you act in your own best interest, you’re showing your absolute best to other people and you’re adding the most value to other them.


I’ll give you an example of my brother-in-law. Cynthia, my wife, is from Mexico originally. I was talking to her brother. He was very upset that he felt judged and racially biased. I let him talk. I let that emotion come out. I asked permission, “Would you mind if I give a different perspective? What if that guy that did this or said this, what if his wife died that morning? What if his child died in a car accident? What if he has been fired from his job? Would you have a different opinion about what he said or what he did to you?” He’s like, “Yes.”

I also asked, “What is racism as you boil it down?” We both agreed that it was a judgment. I said, “Isn’t judging him that he’s a racist, the same thing as him judging you as being Mexican.” It was a good conversation, but what it took was you can’t attack and banter back and forth. You have to step back and try to find common ground so that emotions are tempered. That’s when you can have a more enlightening conversation, even if emotion does exist at a high level to begin with. I believe that’s possible for human beings. At the same time, one person has to understand the tenets of a meaningful conversation and direct the debate, direct the conversation in that arena. It’s a challenge but if we had more of that, it would be being a different state, but yet most people are very compelled. They’re affected. They’re triggered based on a lot of political opinions, one way or the other. It’s sad sometimes.

There’s a quote out there that I have no doubt I will get wrong or not even get close, “If you want to understand another person’s perspective, first, walk a mile in their moccasins.” I’m sure I’ve thrown 2 or 3 of them together there. You and I both have good friends and I’ve spent a lot of time around Robert Kiyosaki. I don’t think he invented this, but he talks about two sides of a coin and then the edge. He’s talking about it from a perspective of a sophisticated investor where you can see both perspectives and make your own decision. I found myself blown away. I found it interesting and also somewhat stressful that people that are very dear friends of mine have gotten caught up in the emotion. I probably have to and I can’t fathom what I’m missing. It’s been quite interesting to go and read news articles things that I don’t normally read because I’m trying to figure out. I deeply care for this person. I’m trying to walk that out. It has been quite enlightening and not easy to do.

There’s a twist to that saying, which is interesting as well, “If you want to understand a person’s view of life, try to walk a mile in their shoes,” or something. It was Roy Rogers or someone said, “If you try to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, you’ll find yourself a mile away in somebody else’s shoes.” At the same time, we want to do that. It’s not to understand where they’re coming. It’s more to have empathy. There are many different events that mold a person’s psyche, how they drive meaning from life, their opinions of this, that or the other. We all have that unique aspect of our lives. Most of those experiences come when we’re younger and get reinforced when we’re adults. It’s hard to see how a person views things. Empathy and valuing somebody else’s life, their emotions and their opinion is a good place to start. At the same time, I go back to those primary fears. When you’re afraid of something and you have a lot more experience in fear, as you have been in certain positions in your life that are life and death situations.

I haven’t been in those, but you could be conditioned to approach fear a certain way. Fear is something that you anticipate and know how to show up in, or fear can be a trigger and completely out of the blue, your natural response is fight or flight. In 2020, we had an earthquake here. I was right sitting in that chair and the whole freaking building was shaking. I was by myself. That fight or flight mentality, it’s totally real. There are degrees of it. It’s one of those things where if you’re not conditioned, if I live in California my entire life and felt earthquakes every three days, it would have been a different response because I would have been conditioned, but it wasn’t.

It was the first time I’ve ever experienced. I didn’t know how to react. It was my body that took over. My point in that is that as people look at whether it’s a political opinion, or a current event, or something that happens that disagrees with their blueprint of life or what they define as right or wrong, good or bad. They don’t want to be wrong. It’s a natural thing. We don’t want to be wrong. We don’t want to be proven wrong. We don’t want to look stupid. We don’t want to look inferior.

When somebody tries to prove us wrong or alludes that we’re wrong, it’s like that same fight or flight mentality. That’s where I look at its conditioning. It’s recognizing being aware of it first and recognizing that your opinion is your opinion, and others have their opinions. Others shouldn’t define what you think about yourself and what you think about life. It shouldn’t impact you the way that it typically does if there’s no conditioning.

It’s okay to be selfish if it’s coming from a perspective of abundance. Click To Tweet

I was thinking also when you were talking about that where I thought you might go is fear. To boil down what I think of fear. It is when you’re in this position. It’s instinctual. It’s been vital for human survival or the survival of all animals. If you distill it down, it is you not believing that you can control the outcome, that you’re out of control which is causing the fear. As we work on ourselves, as we build confidence, hence, let’s take this financial. I have no idea if this is true or not, but I saw this thing that said for CNN, that those who back Trump, you need to think about what impact that has on your ability to get employment from a future employer who knew that you back Trump. It was bizarre. It may have been totally made up.

My point in using this example is that a lot of people freaked out on the comments below that because there was fear there. They didn’t have control. Thinking about it from a financial side, if we can help others and we can help ourselves, first put our own house in order and set up your life so that you do have control. You are not susceptible to others. What I’ve learned in meeting with hundreds of clients since March 2020, and the other members of our team have learned the same thing, that those that are calm, those that understand and those that are asking questions like, “I wonder if good opportunities in investing will be a result of this.” As opposed to those that are like, “None of my tenants are paying. What if I don’t have my job?” Those are real fears. The difference has been that the people have been able to set up their own lives in a way in which they have confidence, a lot of money are sitting on the sideline, their own business and things like that. Something in designing a business in a resilient industry. Things like that help them have confidence and stay away from fear.

There’s a lot that you can do to reinforce the different areas of life that you have anxiety about. At the same time, I wouldn’t call those absolute measurements where you set it up and it’s going to work and help. In the end, Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl is a profound book because it shows that in the face of death, a man can either give up and concede but it’s not forced. He has to be the one that makes that decision or you can have someone say, “That’s the last of my freedom.” It is to choose how I feel regardless of what happens. That famous quote, “That response is growth and freedom.”

I love that because of the circumstances that he was in. This was some like rich kid, trust fund baby. Given the circumstances of this person’s life, being able to say something as profound as that helps to understand our experience of life where we have this reinforcement of cash. We have cashflow. We have investments. We have a financial education. We make good decisions in business. We would hope and we do hope, that’s where people get hooked on hopium is that if you have all of those things, suddenly you’re going to have a fulfilling life. That’s not true. How I’ve learned to look for myself because I want what most other people want. I want a happy life.

I want meaningful relationships. I want to have amazing experiences. We live in a world and a society where we live in abundance and in amazing times. When I look around me, I don’t have to ride a horse home in this snowstorm that’s outside. I don’t have to have buffalo skins all over me because it’s winter. I don’t have to go home and make sure that I chopped enough firewood two months ago to last the winter. I’m able to go home with an amazing set of comforts that wasn’t even experienced by kings a hundred years ago. When I’d take that view of life, it puts me in this state of gratitude where I go home. I have a great conversation with my wife. I get to see my kids happy. What else?

If we find the joy and the fulfillment in those types of moments, and don’t necessarily require as contingencies of life aligning a certain way in order for us to be, feel and experience a certain way. What it does is it gets the things that we want. Those goals, those achievements, those ambitions, it gets them quicker. You’re not attached to this specific thing that’s going to make you feel a certain way. You’re able to experience that now. There’s so much of that around.

I’ll use Eddie, my brother-in-law again. I’m like, “You have two kids and you’re an amazing dad. You can see it. How many people out there don’t have kids, but they want them. They’ll have a wife and they want them, or a husband. It’s an amazing life that you get to live.” You have challenges here or whatever, but once you’re able to focus on what’s there as opposed to what’s not there, your life starts to change. It took me a while to understand that. I would be lying to say that I’m 100% that way. I’m able to catch myself when I have those moments where I’m triggered. I’m able to snap myself back into a perspective that I have an amazingly blessed life. I know Gary Pinkerton. I say that not as ingest. I say that I feel honored to know you and have a friendship with you.

TWS 69 | Abundance Mindset

Abundance Mindset: If you want to understand another person’s perspective, you have to first walk a mile in their shoes.


Thank you. Me too. I said this a couple of episodes ago, but it’s amazing to me that life could be this simple where it comes down to positive. I’ve had this goal to be in a mindset of abundance. I heard people talk about this for years. I’ve seen people who are Pollyanna-ish about life. That’s not what this is about, but then I read Dr. Joe Dispenza‘s book. He made this comment that I was like, “It can’t be that simple.” It was also in the master key system from 100 years ago. One is you can only truly hold one thought in your mind at once.

I tied that to Dr. Frankl’s book because when I read his, I’ve read it 3 or 4 times. I remember the first couple of times, I’m like, “That’s easier said than done especially in the middle of a concentration camp. How do you choose?” I’m going to choose differently. That’s hard. How do you get to that? There’s some positive brainwashing going on. You have to keep thinking. First of all, you have to recognize that for most of us, it’s true. You can only think one thing. If you’re about to flip somebody off and say something nasty to them, but if you force yourself to think about something positive about what they’re wearing or whatever, it’s hard to do that. If you can understand the limitations of the machine we’re operating here, it’s very helpful to train yourself.

You’ve practiced this a lot. It becomes a habit and that habit is recognizing the trigger, recognizing that it’s coming and shifting out of it. Recognizing that it’s possible. It’s a very simple thing to do. It takes consistency and then building enough habits so you recognize when it’s coming on. Those are big keys and it has been hugely successful for me. I learned most of this from you and from my good friend, Aaron Chapman, and many others. It has made a big difference.

You hit the nail in the head. Part of that Frankl quote, the beginning part is between stimulus and response. There’s very little we can do to control stimulus. Stuff’s going to happen. It’s in the space between stimulus and response. It’s trying to shorten that where your response is conditioned. The type of person that operates in that zone, you can tell. There are many people that I’ve been fortunate to not learn from directly but indirectly. Whether it’s through their books, video or going to seminars where they demonstrate that.

It gives you confidence that you are able to do that as well. The type of person that shows up that way, there’s a feeling about them. There’s a sense about them that leads to lots of success. From a business perspective, from an investment and money-making perspective, there’s a common factor that is evident, apparent in all, which is relationships. The relationship between one person to many, one person to another person. It’s the ability to show up in a certain way. That leads to lots of opportunities. If you show up in a certain way, the net zero or net negative way, you’re not going to have many opportunities. It’s not just in investment and business, but it’s in relationships. It’s the way you are as a parent. It’s the way you are as a neighbor.

I try to pay attention to that. How am I showing up? Where is my mindset? Where is my mentality? The way in which I show up I’ve connected to the opportunities I’ll have throughout life as well as the growth of my experience, fulfillment and happiness. As you do it, you start to show up as a different person. You show up with a different part of your personality. That’s where there’s so much magic in that if you can strategically figure that out. It leads to so much in life.

I’m fascinated by that moment and Victor Frankl’s quote about the time between stimulus and response. I was smiling when you were talking about that because my youngest, he used to have this phrase. I don’t hear it too much anymore, but it was awesome. He would do something stupid or make a mess or something. He would say, “That happened.” He’s not mad. I used to think it was so funny. I’ve been pushing my kids, my boys, and I know this is crazy. It’s a little out there, but I always say, “Try to take responsibility for everything that happens in your life. Own everything that happens in your life.”

Focus on yourself and look at life from a new perspective. That is what’s going to lead you to happiness. Click To Tweet

My eldest was like, “Dad, how is that one my fault?” I have found that we all need this little trick to get between stimulus and response without responding. Somehow you need to convince yourself or train yourself to pause. Not just do the reaction, but rather do a measured response. I’ve trained myself to say, “How was that one of my faults?” You figure it out. I asked myself that question and not be sarcastic but like, “How did I cause that?” It causes me to pause. I don’t cut people off or flip people off. I will fully admit that’s what I used to do. It makes a difference. It’s a good point.

There are many different scenarios where that example is evident. You hit on something that I’ve learned in 2020 specifically because everybody has spent a great deal of time with their family. I’ve come to have so much respect and admiration for my kids. Their life is completely shut down. There’s an unintended consequence of everything that’s going on. You can look at the lives of kids being impacted the most if you think about it. I won’t get into details there, but what I’ve noticed in my kids, they have incredible resiliency and an incredible way in which they look at life. I don’t know if I did it. I think they were way more mature than I was at their age.

It’s allowed me to understand one of those paradoxes of life where children are the ones that in a lot of ways are much smarter than adults, from an emotional level, if you think about it. There are lots to learn from dogs as well. It’s one of those things where I’m grateful that we get to talk about this because I get to learn based on me speaking and voicing things that are inside my head and inside me. Also, to do with others that have a similar open mind to how things are, and discovering even better ways to enjoy life despite the circumstances.

You have a stimulus, money printing, the Federal Reserve, you have the President and these hints of socialism that’s happening in politics. You have this person saying this and that person saying that, and you have this evil conspiracy. It’s one of those things where a lot of that stuff is out there. There’s probably truth to a lot of things. At the same time, a key to life is to pay attention to what you focus on and then correlate that to the amount of control that you have and influence that you have. Once you realize that there’s not much you can do, you’re able to skip over that.

Start to focus on yourself and ways in which you can look at life from a new perspective because that’s what’s going to lead to happiness. The other way of doing it is net negative or net zero, where there’s nothing to gain. If you look at the world around us and how we live in an incredibly abundant times, there is so much to be grateful for. There’s so much going on that doesn’t make the news headlines that if we look for it, we’ll be inspired. Peter Diamandis is someone that I follow all the time because he was the first person that snapped me out of all the crap that was going on in 2008, 2009, 2010, where it felt like the world was falling apart.

His book, Abundance, opened my eyes to how much innovation, how much growth, how many people were being saved, the lifespan of people in other parts of the world were being extended. There are so much positive things going on that don’t make the headlines that if we were to step back and maybe put a little bit more effort into researching, we could see the world is transforming in a positive way. If we focused our attention there, it allows for a much better momentary experience. Overall, it’ll be conditioned so that we’re not as susceptible to the anger, the hate, the divisiveness that is super easy to find if you turn on the TV.

Peter’s book would be a great one to have at the bedside and read 5 or 10 pages before you go to bed because it is an inspiring book. Ending on that, looking for the positive, keeping yourself in an abundant mindset has been a theme of this episode. One of the very easy places to do that is to think about the positive aspects of what’s different about our lives now. We talked about how our children’s lives now. That’s your worst nightmare, especially for teenagers to be stuck with your parents and not around your friends and unable to play sports. Think about the lot they got in life. Think about the lot we got in life.

TWS 69 | Abundance Mindset

Abundance Mindset: We have to put our own house in order and set up our life first to help other people.


I have been trying for years ever since. While I was in the military, it was not reasonable. Ever since then, I’ve always wanted to have family dinners at least on the weekends. I succeeded with a Saturday night, but I have to take my family out to eat somewhere to pull that off. COVID-19, starting in March of 2020, we had dinner together during the weeknights, almost every night of the week. The conversations because our kids are sitting around us with not a lot to do, are very amazing intellectual conversations. Throw an election year in the middle of it and some good conversations about the Constitution and the Republic, what it means, why this is important, why that person would say that. I take those opportunities. It’s amazing. I’d written off that I was going to have weekend nights with my kids or any evenings. I had said, “I wasn’t that kind of parent,” but I love it. However, you can reflect on your time and see the advantages that are there, it’ll keep you in the right mindset. That’s how you move forward.

A good ending point is life is happening for you. It’s giving you the opportunity that despite the circumstances, you can experience an amazing life now. It doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be proper discipline, systems or a pursuit of a career. There are some foundational elements to life that makes the experience easier. You hit on some things where you can create a foundation from a structured tools standpoint. At the same time, that doesn’t guarantee a meaningful life. It could help to amplify or accelerate, you experiencing life at a different level. It’s cart before the horse. I’m not saying that a cart is always behind or it could be sometimes in front. I don’t know. In the end, just because you have a lot of money, protection, safety and certainty, it does not guarantee you a meaningful life. If that’s where 100% of your focus is, chances are you’re going to lose the things that are meaningful to you in the process of accumulating that side of it.

I had over half a dozen clients get divorced within a couple of months of one another. This was several years ago. It was humbling because of the varied emotional conversations. I did everything for them. Everything I was doing, the seminars I went to, the videos, the education I got, putting money away and investing. It was all for them. Along the way, that wasn’t necessarily the nonverbal message that was being sent. You got to have a good mix of life all along the way. The typical retirement planning, financial planning is all geared toward this. Someday in the future, all the sacrifices, all the time, all the missed dinners, it’ll all be worth it. That’s not true in my experience. You can challenge me on that. I’m totally grateful for you to do that at the same time. The experiences that we have with ourselves, as well as clients affords us some lessons, some principles. One of those is the mix of life starting now, not sacrificing the different elements of life so that you can enjoy all of them one day.

I used to think that for sure, putting stuff off. You see evidence of that not going well. The only people driving the expensive cars are the 60-year-olds who can’t enjoy them or 70-year-olds. I now believe that you can have everything in life you wanted. To steal from Zig Ziglar, you help other people get what they want, and you make people around you happy, and your happiness comes from that. I would personally start with your spouse and your kids. I’ve made it a focus at one point for myself to all my only purpose in life was that my wife would be happy, whatever that meant. Do you know what happens? I was super happy. The silly little bumper sticker that’s on the fridge that if mom’s not happy, no one’s happy. That stuff is true, but it’s true for anybody in a relationship. If you derive your happiness from seeing happiness coming from others, you’re on a successful path. Patrick, it has been amazing.

I love having these conversations especially with you. Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it.

I have many friends who have reached out. It’s like who’s who of people that I truly care for and got to spend an hour with one of them. Thank you.

It was my pleasure. Thank you, Gary.

We’ll see you next episode.

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About Gary Pinkerton

TWS 69 | Abundance MindsetGary earned his Bachelor of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1991 and a Master of Science in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Illinois in 1993. He spent 26 years serving as a Submarine Officer in the U.S. Navy, including commanding the nuclear attack submarine USS TUCSON from 2009-2011 and retiring as a Captain. His career was rewarding both personally and professionally with unforgettable opportunities to work with highly trained teams employing state of the art technology in support of our Nation and its ideals. It was the type of work that left no doubt it directly contributed to the balance of power across the world and the sustainment of personal freedoms across the globe. But as with any intense calling or career, two decades in the Navy and many deployments had stressed things at home and delayed other important pursuits. In 2011 Gary began a process of replacing his traditional earned income with passive cash flow by purchasing income producing real estate properties.

Today, Gary is a wealth strategist, professional speaker and real estate investor. He first learned about the Perpetual Wealth Strategy and Wealth Maximization Accounts (WMAs), then more commonly known as the Infinite Banking Concept (IBC), while purchasing his first income property in 2011. Utilizing Paradigm Life’s education process, Gary established a WMA to fund this first investment and has repeated the process as he works to continue building passive income sources. This journey had a huge impact on Gary’s understanding of what personal financial security and success are and how best to achieve them – he recognized how far he and most Americans had moved away from sound financial principles that emphasize building a strong foundation focusing on safety and security, and pursuing dependable, consistent growth of their assets. Wall Street convinced families to hand over their hard earned dollars and all control, to hold on through frequent, turbulent market swings and exorbitant fees – it hasn’t worked for most Americans, and it won’t work. Gary joined Patrick Donohoe at Paradigm Life to help educate others and reverse this trend.

Originally from a dairy farm in rural Southern Illinois, Gary now lives with his wife, Sue, and their two sons on the central New Jersey coast.

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Achieving Your Goals And Beyond

TWS 68 | Achieving Your Goals


Once they’ve reached their goals or a certain level of financial independence, most people will always ask, “What’s next?” And reaching that sense of achievement, the bar essentially gets raised as they realize that the horizon extends beyond where they thought it would be. On today’s podcast, Patrick Donohoe takes a look at one of the fundamental variables that he believes is necessary to not only achieving what you are after, but for what’s after that and then what’s after that.

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Achieving Your Goals And Beyond

Thank you for tuning in. I am grateful for this episode. There is, of course, a lot going on in the world now. The things that I believe are happening are for a reason like COVID. In some of the political situations that we’re in, there are reasons there. Disruption oftentimes helps us to understand ourselves, our lives, and what we want at a higher level better. I see so much of that. The reason why I’m starting off this way is because between the last episode and this one, I had the chance to review a lot of the responses that came in from my request for some of you to do a survey. In response, I would send a signed book out. I didn’t realize I’d have to be sending books outside of the United States, but there were several of you that filled out surveys that were in other parts of the world, Australia, New Zealand, Middle East, and the UK.

First off, I thank you for taking the time to fill out that survey, and your insight was invaluable. Additionally, because the sample size wasn’t as high as I would have liked, I wanted a couple of hundred in there, I sent another email and I had an overwhelming response, hundreds of responses come in regarding some of the information I wanted to know in order to take the right direction with a digital course that I was preparing. Your response and your candor was amazing. I couldn’t help but be drawn toward the responses, the obstacles that you’re facing in life, your dreams, and what you want out of your life. It’s inspiring to me. I wanted to start by saying thank you. Also, what I would say humbling in a sense for me is that I have already started to put the course together. I’ve recorded the first module. I did so with the intent of doing some iteration once I got your feedback.

As I read the feedback, as I looked at responses and I tried to put myself in your shoes and understand your world, it made me excited because the first module that I recorded for this digital course, I plan on releasing toward the end of 2020, the first part of 2021. It is right in line with what I believe is going to be hugely valuable to you. I’m going to give you some insight into this first module and make this a little bit shorter of an episode. In doing that, I would like to make some observations in regard to what I see as some universal challenges people are facing, which I believe there are some universal solutions to that. I’m going to first start off by saying, there was a couple of responses that came from a question about what type of content would you like inside of the course?

They said, “We don’t want any personal development or mindset information.” I chuckled because that’s exactly where I started. I realized what they were saying and why they were saying it. There’s a lot of heavy mindsets out there with a few practical applications to back that up, but believe me, there’s going to be a lot of that. I probably wouldn’t do the course if I couldn’t start with mindset first. That’s what I’m going to focus on the topic of the show. There’s something I believe, and I see it not just with my own experiences, but the experiences of thousands of clients I’ve gotten to do business and my firm’s been doing business with. I’ve also networked with a lot of successful people. In the end, there’s something interesting.

Number one, there’s some conflict as far as what we’re motivated by. That conflict is the fact that we want finality to what we’re working on, what we’re doing, and what we’re putting our attention to our resources behind. We want this finality or this certainty of the conclusion. The idea behind that is a degree of fulfillment, achievement to that feeling, and we believe that feeling, once it’s achieved, will last for the rest of our lives. That’s the conflict is that life is an infinite game. There are things that draw us into wanting to always be achieving more and going beyond what we’ve already accomplished. Most people don’t realize that until they’ve gained wealth, they’ve achieved their goals and they’re at that point and they realize, “What do I do now?” It’s unequivocal that happens. There’s no doubt in my mind that it does not happen. People reach that point and it’s, “What’s next?”

When a person gets that sense of achievement, the bar essentially gets raised. Click To Tweet

That’s where I look at several of you who have responded having achieved a lot and in most circumstances would be considered wealthy and financially independent. At the same time when a person gets to those levels, that sense of achievement, the bar essentially gets raised, or the horizon extends beyond where they thought it would be. That’s what I’m going to speak to you. As I look at one of the fundamental variables that I believe is necessary to not only achieving what you are after whatever that goal is, it’s essential for achieving what’s after that and then what’s after that. I’m going to start with an example. One is Elon Musk. The other is Jon Huntsman, who I’ve talked about before. He’s a billionaire. He passed away, but his family is in Utah and I’m somewhat familiar with them. I’m going to start with Elon Musk.

For those of you who know Elon’s background and have read his biography and seen interviews with him here and there, realize that he has some pretty significant reasons for what he does. He has these dreams. He has this purpose behind what he’s doing that goes way beyond Elon. With the companies he owns, I’m going to speak specifically to SpaceX, it has this grandiose dream of what it wants to accomplish. The reason behind Elon’s drive is to essentially extend our experience of life out into space in the solar system. There are also many resources associated with what would be valuable on earth, but wouldn’t have to pollute, wouldn’t have to take our natural resources here. I’m not going to get into the complexities of the details of that, but he has these huge grandiose dreams and reasons to benefit humanity.

The interview that I saw alluded to the fact that Elon’s heroes that drove him to want to pursue commercial and private space exploration or travel demonized him. They scrutinize and ridicule him for what he was doing. In one of the interviews, I saw Elon was emotional. His heroes that he looked up to his entire life even up to that point were the ones ridiculing him. How many of us whose heroes would crush our dreams would give up at that moment? Because Elon Musk’s reasons were significant and far beyond appeasing heroes, mentors, people he looked up to, it’s what pushed him through the ridicule, the feedback, and the achievements that SpaceX has made despite numerous failures is significant. Now I’m going to go to Jon Huntsman.

Jon Huntsman, a billionaire. He’s created multiple companies. I’m not going to get into the details of that either. In one of his books, I remember distinctly that the drive that helped him pursue the various ventures and opportunities that he had was his drive to cure cancer because his mother had cancer, died of cancer, and he was driven to cure it and found that through business. It was why he pursued certain business ventures and so forth, because of those grandiose reasons for achieving something that was beyond him, his lifestyle, and his purpose. That’s what I’m going to keep talking about. I look at the levels that we’re at in our life and I believe what got us here are the results of certain reasons. What’s going to get us beyond where we’re at now are going to be different reasons.

As I got into the formation of this digital course that I’ve been working on, that’s what I concluded is getting yourself in the right mindset, having the wealth perspective or mindset as you approach life, business, profession, job and relationships. As you approach it that way, number one, it’s understanding the reasons why you’re doing what you’re doing. The second is to be crystal clear about the results that you want. I believe reasons continue to evolve over the course of time but as you find yourself with obstacles, which the majority of you have, many of you don’t have obstacles. It sounds like life is going amazing, but there was one comment in the feedback that said, “Everything’s going pretty good right now. I’m waiting for that curveball or that black swan of that event that’s going to knock me off-kilter.” That person understands how the cycle of life works.

TWS 68 | Achieving Your Goals

Achieving Your Goals: What got us here are the results of certain reasons. What’s going to get us beyond where we’re at now are going to be different reasons.


The idea is that I don’t think we have to react and wait for those events to happen, which throws us off-kilter and forces us to change, innovate, and grow. I believe we can do it strategically. That’s where understanding what motivates you and understanding and getting clarity, gaining clarity in yourself, crystal clarity about your reasons for what you’re doing must exist first. Those reasons have to be way beyond what you achieve. That’s where there are these corresponding reasons to achievement ratio that I’ve seen in my own life and in thousands of other people as well. I’m not saying that those that achieve wealth, prestige, and accomplish their goals didn’t start with reasons strategically. However, those reasons exist if you dig into what compelled them to do what they did.

The second is clarity of results and outcomes, what it is you want in the end. What is the definition of your ideal life? What is financial freedom? What does life look like and being crystal clear about that? There are a fear and reluctance people have in defining that from my experience, which is they don’t want to fail. They don’t want to state something and then ultimately not live to those expectations. I get that. That’s a natural fear that we have. That’s why it’s important to number one, understand reasons, have clearly defined outcomes and results. What happens next is a quote that I’ve gleaned and am inspired by, which is by Tony Robbins, “It’s when your shoulds become musts, then your entire life changes.” We know what we should do. We know who we should talk to. We know what we should change in our business or change in our job. At the same time, they’re not musts because our reasons are not strong enough.

I’ll end with this. I’ll claim that I made getting into this wealth mindset aspect of this digital course that I’m working on was that, over the last several years, I claim that you and me have been presented with all of the opportunities to make $1 billion. Whether it’s relationships, information, books, people that cross your path that you may or may not form a relationship with, all of that existed, yet we didn’t have the $1 billion reasons or even the $1 million reasons for some of you. That’s where we start in the course. It’s not the end of the course. It is simply the beginning. What happens as you start to define your reasons and get clarity beyond what you have now, as well as start to define the actual results you want from your efforts, tactics, and strategies? That’s when your shoulds become musts and it opens up the space for some amazing things to happen.

I’m going to end with that. I first want to say thank you to those who took the time, candid, and clear. I hope the exercise helped you understand what you want and what’s holding you back. That’s a big step in being able to overcome a challenge, to get or achieve what you’re after. Hopefully, it benefited you. The course is going to be awesome. I’m excited to give you some additional updates on that, but I’ll conclude for now. Thank you for reading. Thank you for your support. It means the world to me. Go out and produce, go out and touch somebody’s life, and live an amazing life yourself. Take care.

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Experiencing Life: The True Essence Of Wealth

TWS 67 | Wealth Experience


We may have different notions of what it is like to experience wealth, but the reality is that experience in itself is wealth. It depends on how present you are to capture the full essence of that experience. Whether or not you have achieved the monetary value that you would associate with financial abundance, true wealth lies in your ability to savor the daily experience of life, to be present in everything you do. In this episode, Patrick Donohoe reminds us that life is short and can even be shorter than we imagine it to be. Why wait to celebrate the wealth that you already have? Join in and participate in Patrick’s two-part challenge that will help you grasp the true meaning of wealth.

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Experiencing Life: The True Essence Of Wealth

I’m excited to be with you. I have a short one for you. It’s going to be simple, a couple of points, but I think they’re profound and awesome. Before I get to that, I wanted to thank those of you who responded to my request over the last several episodes to provide feedback in a survey. In response, that’s going to help me to frame and design a digital education course specifically for the blog audience. Your ideas are amazing, how candid you were, how truthful and honest you were, it was humbling. I’m grateful to you. Thank you for doing that. If you have not received the book that I had promised you, it is on its way. Here’s what I’m going to talk about.

The reason why I decided to do this, I’ve been up in my studio doing an event that is for financial advisors. I’m doing it with two of my partners, Todd Langford and Kim Butler. I’m in a familiar set. I did a lot of the episodes previous to COVID-19, but you see some different colors and some different branding. It’s the Prosperity Economics Movement. This is specifically an event for advisors, but there are some things that came up in our event. There are also some topics that have come up in some personal relationships that I have. Surprise, they align with a lot of the things we’ve been discussing and talking about on the show.

Wealth is found in experience and is relative to the degree of our presence in that experience. Click To Tweet

That’s why after multiple hours, I think almost ten hours of recording, I’m going to talk about this because I think it’s that important. Hopefully, it resonates with you. It’s simple and profound. Now first make the statement that for me, and in my experience, I’m not sure how it is for you but ultimately people pursue wealth. They pursue material things. They pursue achievement. They pursue success because ultimately they want improved, meaningful relationships. Whether it’s relationships with an intimate partner whether it’s a relationship with children, with parents, with neighbors, with friends. It’s to achieve milestones in levels in order to experience life at a different level, not by yourself, but with those you care about, those you love. Most everything involves a relationship. You’re investing your business whether you own a business or you work for another business, the quality of your life oftentimes is in proportion to the quality of your relationships.

Understanding relationships is powerful. This is an event where we’re talking about providing financial advice to people, but the personal conversations I’ve had are in relation to some family and personal relationships. Here’s what it boils down to. It’s interesting but first, people do not want to change especially if the change is insinuated by somebody else. That’s number one. Number two, people don’t want to be wrong especially when it’s insinuated that they are wrong by somebody else who thinks they’re right. Here’s the fascinating thing. Even though people don’t want to change and even though they don’t want to be wrong, they still want different results, better results.

You’re probably asking yourself the question or thinking through your mind that overly used cliché which is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing but expecting a different result. If a person doesn’t want to change and they don’t want to be wrong, isn’t that doing the same thing they’re already doing if they truly want different results? Yes, but here is an amazing thing. When you insinuate a person needs to change or that they’re wrong, it’s not that they won’t change or that they won’t be willing to do something different, but it’s how the approach occurs. He’s since passed, but we talked last time on the show about Dr. David R. Hawkins and the levels of consciousness that he has, which is a very interesting conversation. In that level of consciousness, it talks about force. In the force component, this is a big part of financial services where you have an ego-driven industry where people are telling each other what to do. It presupposes that they’re telling somebody what to do, it’s because they’re not doing what they’re supposed to do, which means they’re wrong. If they’re not doing what they’re supposed to do, it means they have to change. Instantly you have this battle that occurs when you’re below that line between force and power.

As you look at having a true intention of either giving people advice, knowing that there is this path that they could be on that will give them the results that they want, but yet they don’t want to feel like they’re being told what to do or that they have to change or that they’re wrong. How do you go about doing it if that’s what your genuine intention is? Here’s the epiphany. When you approach people in a neutral or an accepting state, these are two levels that David R. Hawkins talks about on his levels of consciousness. Neutrality and acceptance are you go into a relationship and there’s no judgment. You’re curious about their life, their day, what they’ve learned recently, what they’re doing. You make compliments, you acknowledge them and you have to be genuine and doing this. You can’t fake this, but that’s the idea of neutrality and acceptance.

TWS 67 | Wealth Experience

Wealth Experience: There are ways in which we can show up and really capitalize on the experience of life.


You love a person, accept them for who they are and celebrate that and genuinely want for their happiness. As they experience your non-judgment, as they experience you that you’re curious about them. You’re curious about their life. You’re curious about their interests. You’re curious about their day. If you make a mistake, you are apologetic. You’re humble about it. If that’s where a relationship starts and then you start to discover what a person wants, what new results they want, then they will typically approach you with wanting advice. With wanting direction, with wanting feedback, with wanting perspective, with wanting your opinion.

Without that, I would say sequence, you approach those two primary resistance variables, which is they don’t want to change and they don’t want to be wrong. When you start to establish a meaningful relationship using what I said, those two levels of consciousness, neutrality and acceptance, it’s where people start to be compelled by you, empowered by you and ultimately seek after your perspective and advice. At that stage, you provide insight into, “What are you trying to accomplish? What do you want?” You provide guidance at that point.

It’s an interesting dynamic. I want you to think about some things that you do in your life where you may have the right intention of telling your kids what to do, tell your neighbor what to do. You see the path that they’re on and you want them to have the results that they want, but yet there’s resistance to what your opinion and feedback are unless the dynamic of the relationship is neutrality and acceptance. Try that on for size. It’s something I’ve learned probably a decade ago, but because human nature is designed, especially in males we’re designed to solve problems, especially when it comes to relationships we have with the opposite sex females who sometimes are not necessarily wired the same way.

I hope I don’t go down a bad path here and say some politically incorrect things. I’ll speak specifically to my relationship with my wife. When my wife has challenges and she’s facing a problem, when I go in there and solve it and then say, “We’ll do this or do this,” it immediately creates conflict. When I go in with a spirit of listening and she downloads, talks and she gets things off that are pent up, I realized over the years that she doesn’t want solutions. She wants me to care, for me to be there. Even though every fabric of my being is a solution, it’s not necessarily what she wants. That’s a totally different conversation as far as your intimate relationships are concerned.

What I wanted you to get from this is I’ll summarize. Number one, relationships make the world go round. Ultimately, it’s what we all want. We want more meaning and more quality to those relationships that improve the quality of our lives. That’s business, that’s investing, literally everything. When we insinuate, when our energy, questions, mannerisms, state makes a person wrong or that they have to change something, the guard goes up. It’s like an instant force field. The idea is to get the guard down for them to be open, enrolled, the state of neutrality whether it’s the statements you make, how you answer questions, the energy of acceptance and neutrality is powerful.

As you approach relationships that way, you don’t judge, you listen. You try to understand, not solve. It is going to create an environment for that relationship to grow. Ultimately, you could have all the solutions. If you approach it the wrong way, people resist it. If you approach it in a strategic way, people will embrace it and love you for it. I hope you learned something from this episode. I appreciate all the support. It means a ton to me. Share it with friends, neighbors and family. I would love nothing more than that. That’s it. We will see you next time. Go out there and create some value for yourself and for others. Take care.

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Overcoming Obstacles And The Nature Of Leadership

TWS 66 | Overcoming Obstacles


No matter what stage you are in your business, there will always be challenges to face and overcome. The difference between those who succeed and not is how they look at these challenges. In this episode, Patrick Donohoe goes solo to talk about overcoming obstacles in business, particularly the mindset it takes to see them through as a leader. Taking cues from authors and industry leaders, he shares the many lessons and resources out there that can help us realign the nonlinear nature of life that loves to thrust us into uncomfortable places. Join Patrick in this discussion to gain some more wisdom and clarity about overcoming obstacles and the nature of leadership.

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Overcoming Obstacles And The Nature Of Leadership

I hope you have enjoyed the last few episodes. I wanted to first thank the response that we’ve had to the request for feedback in regards to a course that is being created specifically for the audience. Your books are on the way, so you should receive those in the next few days. Although there are some international people that it may take a little bit longer for your books to get there. Nonetheless, thank you guys for your feedback. It was interesting that the feedback was diverse. It wasn’t the sample size that I thought it was going to be. We’re going to extend the survey and do another ten books. We went through the hardbacks. We went through the softback.

We’re going to have a survey. It’s getting a gauge as to where you’re at in business, where you’re at with your investments, where you are with your finances, with your overall sentiments regarding your financial state. That is going to give me a good pulse on the direction to take the different aspects of the course that is being conceptualized. I’m thankful. You have been awesome, thorough, open, honest. I appreciate the candid feedback. Let’s get into the episode.

There Will Always Be Obstacles

I have two topics. First, I want to make the statement that what I had seen in those surveys, what I see with speaking with clients, what I see with the advisors that I mentor is there is always going to be an obstacle. There’s always going to be something that you’re challenged by. There may be this instance where a day or a week, or maybe a month, not much longer than that. They’re always going to be challenges. Even when you accumulate wealth, when you establish a business, there are always going to be challenges.

The non-linear nature of life requires a conditioned linear response. If not, the reaction is going to align with that non-linear and you’re never going to be able to correct the out of control car that’s spinning around these curves. We’re going to talk a little bit about that when it comes to a conversation that I had also with a book that I have re-read. It’s a challenge called 75 Hard. It was put out originally by Andy Frisella, who has a couple of cool motivational podcasts for entrepreneurs, business owners, a straight-up guy. He created this for himself first, but a lot of other people have taken the challenge. In 75 days, you have a checklist of things that you must complete. If not, you have to restart the challenge or quit the challenge.

These checklist items are two 45-minute workouts, one has to be outside. You have to take a picture, like a selfie of yourself to see your physical change over the course of time. You have to drink a gallon of water. You have to read ten pages of nonfiction. You also have to follow a diet. There are no cheat meals or alcohol for 75 days straight. I’m going into week four, about twenty days. It’s going awesome. If you guys want to check it out, search the #75HARD. You can find that out.

The reason I bring that up is that in there are the ten pages. I’ve got into some more books that I’ve been intended on reading. I’ve been reading Shannon Lee’s book who’s Bruce Lee’s daughter. It’s a book about his quote that has so much meaning. We do a whole episode on that regarding being like water. Water takes all sorts of forms and makes its way into whatever it wants to and absorbs friction. It’s a fascinating concept. I won’t get into that now.

There will always be an obstacle, something that you're challenged by. Click To Tweet

One book that I’ve gone through during my workouts, as well as reading is Power vs. Force by David R. Hawkins. He passed away in 2011 or 2012, but he wrote some incredible books on a variety of topics. The one, in particular, is the idea of how we show up. Mostly we don’t do it intentionally. We show up randomly non-strategically. There’s a spectrum that exists when it comes to the energy or the feeling we give to others, whether it’s in the words that we use, whether it’s in our overall demeanor, our tonality. There’s a force spectrum and then there’s a power spectrum.

The force spectrum is the intentions, motivations, energies, words that are used to describe the force side of things is pride, ego, anger, and desire. It’s a fear or shame. When you show up that way, the idea of force is that it’s either a net-zero or a net negative. What that means is you create either the same as what you consume or take, or you produce less than what you take. There is power. Power, the words they used to describe this spectrum. They’re different degrees. One is courage. That’s where it starts.

The nature of courage, hero, overcoming adversity, and these are all net positive. Meaning, you’re producing more than you take or consume. There’s neutrality. It’s being able to assess the situation, the nonlinear aspects of life, and handle it rationally with a reason as opposed to emotionally and reacting to it. You have acceptance. You also have words such as reason, love, joy, peace, and enlightenment. This has much to do with wealth and business.

I consider the Pareto Principle. It’s like the 80/20 rule. This is 80%. How you show up, the energy that you put off, who you are and showing up to whatever the circumstance is. Especially if it’s business, you have some control and influence over that. If you don’t intentionally understand the way in which you show up, then there’s 80% gone of success or at random. It’s interesting to perceive the obstacles people have, the fear that they have of not being able to overcome obstacles or what they would look like if you don’t overcome an obstacle.

The Nature Of Leadership

It’s driven by that carnal aspect of our makeup that reacts to things as if we’re going to get murdered, killed or wiped out. That’s where I look at. If you can understand the energy levels associated with power versus force, then you can start to see how you’re showing up. Are you showing up trying to force initiatives? Are you showing up to empower initiative? That’s the first topic. We’re going to talk about that a little bit. The second topic is going to be the nature of leadership.

I had an excellent conversation with a client that I wanted to share with you. There are two things that I pulled from that. This client is successful, younger under the age of 40 or turned 40, and also in an executive-level position that pays high six-figures plus bonus, but it’s in a corporate type of structure. The conversation revolved around the hierarchical order that they’re in wanting to influence change but having a lot of pushback. Feeling also compelled to go out on their own, have more freedom, experience or capitalize on this entrepreneurial spirit that they have in them. Most people that get to that level especially at an early age with that type of ambition have.

TWS 66 | Overcoming Obstacles

Overcoming Obstacles: Even when you accumulate wealth or establish a business, there will always be challenges.


Power Versus Force

First, I’m going to conclude my thoughts in regards to this Power vs. Force: The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior. There are some different examples and anecdotes that he has in there. It’s a powerful concept. I’ve been able to experience myself and calibrate or know where I’m at, the words I described to use how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, what my intention is, what my motivation is. If they’re below the line between power and force, which force ends at pride, ego and power begin at courage. It’s knowing there and realizing that if I show up in those power states, the states of neutrality, acceptance, and courage, I’m going to look at the world differently. I’m going to look at opportunities differently.

I’m going to look at the non-linear experiences that I have whether it’s somebody making a mistake at the office or someone misrepresenting this, that, or the other. It could be something a spouse says. It could be something that a sibling says or a child says. It could be that someone you respect says. We are in this volatile environment of emotions when it comes to politics. That is something that you can easily get sucked into. That’s where those types of feelings whether it’s resentment, anger or fear.

You know what that’s like. You can tell when a person is in that state. You can sense it. You understand it. Now if you have some better context where force is going to be a net-zero at best or a net negative, but power is always going to be a net positive. It’s focusing your attention, energy, perspective, the motivation behind powerful forces, those that empower others. You know that. We experienced those energies and those that are most influential. Those that make the biggest difference that commands well. You feel and sense that. That’s the biggest thing.

I’m going to give you some call to actions as far as how do you determine that? What can you do to understand where you’re at and ways in which you can show up? I’ll give you one little insight. What I do at least to see where I’m at on a daily basis is, I would first say that it’s challenging to get into these empowering states to have that state of courage, that state of neutrality, that state of acceptance, that state of joy, and happiness. What you could do is you can use your past, body and mind’s amazing capability to remember the experiences of the past.

We all understand what courage is like. There are moments in our past where we’ve exercised courage, where we stood up to something that was challenging and difficult. We remember how that felt. Neutrality, it’s the same thing. We remember when we were empathetic, neutral to something where all things being equal. It may have come across as something that went against our belief system, what we would’ve done and otherwise would have set us off, but yet we were neutral to it. We found that looking at another’s perspective, understanding, the way they look at things may have caused the behavior. Suddenly that type of reason and rationale allows us to be more indifferent to the situation.

Acceptance, joy, happiness, and success, those types of feelings are within us because we’ve experienced that in the past. We yearn for that. Going to this conundrum of how most people think, which is once they have something, once they have this money, once this occurs, then there’ll be happy. They’ll be in that state. It’s backward. You’re more likely to get everything that you want if you experience and understand that state first.

Be like water because water takes all sorts of forms and makes its way into whatever it really wants to. Click To Tweet

This goes into experiencing and understanding what you’re like when you remember the experiences of your life, where you were courageous, empathetic, and you felt on top of the world and things happened, but it was water off a duck’s back. I have these multiple memories that I’m starting to collect that allow me to easily go into a state where I know I’ve made a difference. I know I’ve impacted someone. I know that I’ve stood up to adversity and overcame the adversity. I try to have my days centered around that energy of power as opposed to what we normally gravitate toward as human beings, which is force.

Hierarchical Structure In The Corporate World

Let’s move on to part two. What’s interesting about some of the feedback that you guys gave. There are several business owners that responded and talked about some of the challenges with their businesses at various sizes. There are also those that were in successful positions, but they were positions that weren’t entrepreneurial, weren’t their own business. It was working essentially for somebody else. What I would say is that there’s a hierarchical structure in small businesses. There’s also a hierarchical structure in the corporate world. Sometimes people get frustrated with reporting to somebody, having somebody tell them what to do. Therefore, they will go off and try to create something on their own. Be self-employed, be an entrepreneur, and start a business.

I’m going to be the first to tell you that the typical path for an entrepreneur, a small business owner now going off and doing things on your own, you’re going to make the same amount of money net and spend probably twice the amount of time and energy. Running a business, being an entrepreneur, being on your own, it’s a skillset that requires more of you than where you’re at right now. I’m not saying that it’s not possible or you shouldn’t do it, but there is a calculated, strategic way in which you can experience it.

I did an interview. It was an episode that lasted a while. It was with Michael Gerber. He wrote The E-Myth. There’s E-Myth for every profession that’s out there. There are E-Myth principles and then they’re applied to several different types of professions or industries. You also can check out Michael Gerber’s book, The E-Myth. There’s E-Myth Revisited. He has a lot of online content as well. It was an awesome interview.

The interview was scheduled for 45 minutes and we ended up going almost two hours. Go back and read that. Where I was going is if you look at the foundation of success within a corporate structure, within a hierarchical structure or in the small business or entrepreneurial world, the one element is that creates success. It’s that 80/20 Rule is leadership. The conversation I had was with this successful individual. He had accomplished a ton. He has seven figures of savings. He makes high six figures and it’s in the healthcare industry.

He has a leadership position, but it’s not the leadership position. There’s only one more level to go and then he’s capped out. What’s going through his mind is there’s a marginal improvement to get to that level, but is it worth it? Is there something else I can do? Should I go on my own? I’ve established all of this knowledge. It’s one of those things where he has initiatives. He has things that he wants to do to grow the specific group. There are about 100 people to a certain level, but yet there’s someone at the top that hired him that is pushing back.

TWS 66 | Overcoming Obstacles

75 HARD challenge: The 75 HARD-Running: Stay Motivated Journal

There’s this feeling of them being threatened. If this person is able to initiate these types of changes and orchestrate them and achieve success, then it makes them look bad. They’re afraid of looking bad because they’re afraid of being let go, less valuable, etc. I’m going to approach it in two ways. Number one, how I approached him being a leader when it comes to those that are above him, even being able to lead them. It’s also finding opportunities that are derivatives of what your core competencies are, your success is. I’ll explain both of these pieces.

The first one is when you are hired or join a company, it is so rare. I’ve seen it a few times. It’s becoming more available and more apparent that companies are going in this direction, but it’s a good sign when you are hired into a hierarchical order where you’re being hired as a position above the person and have a great interview process. That’s golden. Most people are hired underneath the person that’s hiring them or bringing them on.

In your position, not necessarily in a meritocracy where the order is based on experience, knowledge, expertise, core competency. It’s based on seniority, how long you’ve been there. It’s based on those types of factors. This person was hired within a hierarchy underneath the true leader. It was his role to essentially do their job so that they would be able to go out, make rein, be influential here, there, and the other. It made sense from the beginning, but then it came down to making these types of changes, where it would create improvement. It would avoid obstacles. It would prevent some haywire things from happening, which were evidenced.

It’s a train going on the track. It’s on the track. It’s going at a certain speed, yet there’s a gap in the track right before a bridge or a bridge that’s out. One person can see it, the other can’t. There’s a hierarchical order that says that, “I can’t see it. You can see it. Because I’m in the senior order, we’re going to keep going.” It was a multi-hour conversation. The way that I looked at it, which is how I have learned to run a business is this person who’s seniority to him, they have good leadership capabilities.

It has nothing to do with the change and the initiatives that want to be integrated into the structure of the business. It has to do with the way in which it’s presented. I caught this person essentially saying, “They should know this. That’s their role. They should know what to do. They should know that this isn’t working. They should know this and they should.” It’s one of those things where you try to approach irrational behavior with rational thinking. There’s always a quagmire.

The idea is you need to put yourself in that person’s shoes, understand what they want, understand what their life is about, understand their identity, understand what they’re afraid of, what keeps them up at night. When you know that, then you can see how going on the path that they’re on can lead to what they don’t want. You can talk about that, bring that up, highlight that and have them consider that as a possibility.

Force ends at pride and ego, and power begins at courage. Click To Tweet

At the same time, you can’t go in and say, “This is what we’re going to do. Here’s my plan,” because then you’re leaving it up to them to define the meaning of that, and whether you’re trying to usurp their authority or whether you’re trying to help. The context of the conversation and recommendation is way more important to set from the very beginning. The best way to do that especially in hierarchical order is to understand what this person wants. What are they afraid of? What are they passionate about?

This person happened to have a lot of layers of identity that they were trying to protect. They felt threatened by the change that would make them look bad. At the same time, the path that they were going down was going to compromise all the different aspects of their identity, to begin with. That’s where we went. We started to highlight how can you have a conversation with this person and come at it from a neutral perspective, energy, and go in and say, “You want to do this. You want to make rein. You want to be on these boards. I know you’re passionate about that. I know it’s making a difference and here’s what I’m seeing in the future. I see that we’re going on this path. Because of my experience of what I’ve seen at other groups and other companies I’ve been with, this is what the end result is going to be. Here’s where I think we can establish a few pieces of change here, a few pieces of change here, and this is how it’ll get you what you want.”

It may not say it in those words but essentially allude to the fact that it’s going to help them to be better, to get what they want. It’s done in a collaborative fashion. We went into a lot of other details. The idea is that when you’re in this hierarchical order, the greatest fear somebody has is looking bad. If they look bad, the results of that are going to be them losing their job, their position, and losing their credibility. That is going to compromise what is most important to them. You got to work your way backward. You got to start with what’s most important to them? What do they want? What are they after? What are they passionate about? What are they striving for?

Try to view the world the same way they view the world and then approach it, showing how the path that they’re on is ultimately going to lead based on the experience of the new to a place that they don’t want. They may not be able to see it. It’s providing a replacement of their belief system, their perspective with an alternative that will get them what they truly want. Approaching that way is strategic, at the same time, this is where true leaders are. You can be a leader whether you’re the mailroom person or you can be a leader at that level of executive.

At the same time, the same principles apply. Even though there’s way down in the pecking order and the way high up on the pecking order, human behavior, human nature is always relevant. As you can imagine, a person that is at this prestige, that is ambitious, that is young, that is accomplished a lot, they’re thinking of plan B. If they can’t ram through their plan A, which is, “This is what we need to do you should know that, and you should accept my proposal,” they’re thinking of a plan B.

Plan B is, “I’m going to go somewhere else. I’m going to go to another company. Somebody is going to value me more or I’m going to go on my own.” It was interesting because I did an episode a number of months ago where I talked about how the Native Americans would capitalize on every aspect of the buffalo. The same thing with a cow and petroleum, where you have this one central commodity and one central thing, but there are many derivatives and uses out of it. We had that conversation and this individual was very entrepreneurial and driven.

TWS 66 | Overcoming Obstacles

Be Water, My Friend: The Teachings of Bruce Lee

We started to identify the different factions of their value. We started to look at what is their experience? What are they passionate about? What are the ways in which they can do a little bit of a derivative in certain areas? We identified a couple of opportunities. I’m going to give you that example and I’ll cut to some of the calls to action that I came up with. Regardless of where you’re at, you can apply a similar perspective as this individual that I had a great conversation with.

The derivative was he had expertise in the medical field and it was in the merger acquisitions business side of things, business structure. He also had many different contacts in that field of different medical companies, pharmaceutical companies, health networks and insurance companies. He had many executive-level contacts. I said, “What are opportunities where you’re seeing the medical industry go? What direction is it going? What do you see as the future?”

It went to these different startups and incubators that have been created in the city that he’s in that will be forming little specialized services, some of them are medical devices, but essentially it was a startup world, an incubator world of the medical industry. He identified not just one but a couple of them. That’s where I said, “Do you know anybody that’s there? Somebody that is part of it, that’s running it.” He had those relationships.

It went into what role could you play in order to not only have influence in those areas where you can provide some legal and business consulting on a small scale. It’s a derivative of what he’s already doing, but be able to influence good and also potentially have an opportunity for investment and grow his wealth, but then it could lead to a more firm consulting opportunity. I’m not sure what’s going to happen. I’ll know if he took action, which I guarantee he’s already taken action knowing him. The idea is that those opportunities existed. Our mindset is focused on what our primary core competency and obligations are.

Depth Versus Breadth Of Experience

We often don’t necessarily look at, within those competencies, is there a value that can be derived from that and applied to other areas of the business world as opposed to having to go off and completely start fresh and do something new? It’s being able to identify opportunities, whether it’s consulting, freelancing, etc. The thing I wanted to say in that regard, it’s the breadth versus depth. There’s this interesting concept in a business where you can have a depth of experience, which is extreme specialization, or you can have breadth, which is a wide range.

You’d go wide and shallow or you can go narrow and deep, or you can start doing a hybrid. It’s being intentional about your breath, knowledge, experience, specialty, as well as your depth. That is an interesting observation that you can make where you start to realize potential opportunities to go deeper into your field. Opportunities where you can gain even more specialized knowledge or you can start to go to the next level breath wise horizontally where you can start to understand maybe derivative aspects of your field.

Running a business, being an entrepreneur, and being on your own requires more of you than where you're at right now. Click To Tweet

In the end, this is what leads to you making not only the biggest difference and the most amount of money, but it’s being the most fulfilled. I’m going to be the first to say that you don’t have to go out on your own and form a business in order to do this. There are many opportunities. Even more so with COVID-19 and what it has facilitated as far as remote work. People are working from all over the world now where they had to be in a specific centralized location in the past. I look at the tremendous opportunity that exists to number one, identify your core competencies. Identify your strengths. Identify what I call human life value assets that I talk about in the book and start to leverage those.

Start to apply them to different areas with different companies and splinter or create derivatives of that and test here and test there. You don’t have to completely jump ship in order to pursue these types of ventures. What I would say is that from a call to action standpoint with regards to this second part of the episode, you get to know objectively and not just use assumptions or gut reaction as to where your strengths and passions are. This is the know they self where you can look at different assessments that are more objective in nature. The first that I love is Kolbe, the second is StrengthsFinder. The third is the Myers-Briggs.

It’s not simply taking these tests, but it’s studying and understanding the reports. Within those reports, it’s finding if you were to break down the talents, the passions or the fulfillment. As you take those assessments, what do you feel the most strongly about? Were they spot on more than any other area? That’s a signal for you to focus on where they nailed everything almost verbatim. That is where you can start to understand your competencies, where you’re passionate about and find opportunities where you could potentially go deeper.

You can enhance or magnify the depth of what you know before you go horizontally and the breadth of it. Going to The E-Myth, most people when they get frustrated in the hierarchical order of working in a structure, they pursue this path of entrepreneurship, self-employment, and starting their own business. Their core competency is in this little narrow niche whether they know it or not, but yet they take on a breadth of things. Whether it’s, you got to know some accounting, marketing, sales, all these other aspects of things.

It’s an interesting dynamic where you look at people that want to be freer. They want to have more opportunities. They want to make more money. Oftentimes, it’s the paradox. What you should be doing is probably the opposite of what you’re inclined to do. One of the calls to action for you is to know yourself at a deeper level, take these tests. You’ll spend maybe $100 on them, but they will be golden. In there, it objectively shows who you are, why you’re paid, what value you’re bringing to the world.

You can also assess what aspect of those reports is your core and use that as an indicator of what to pursue and find ways in which you can go deeper. A great way to determine that is within that niche, what’s your maximum income? What’s the maximum income in that specific area that these types of reports and self-assessments give you? I study mine all the time. I look at them. Sometimes I’m frustrated by them because I’m inclined to do this, that or the other, but they keep me in my core.

TWS 66 | Overcoming Obstacles

Power vs. Force

The second thing is a call to action I’ve already mentioned this and this goes to part one. From where you show up, your most common and consistent state, is it in a position of force or is it in a position of power? Are you showing up afraid? Are you showing up prideful? Are you showing up angry or resentful? Are you showing up courageously? Are you showing up neutral? Are you showing up with a feeling of acceptance that regardless of what happens, it’s happening for you? It’s not happening to you.

Get a pulse on that and then find some core memories of where you showed up as a hero. You overcame adversity, find those memories where you were neutral, where you were empathetic, where you took control and did it in an empowering way. When you find those, that is one of the best shortcuts to try and to show up every day. Maybe you start showing up in business settings, in meetings, in presentations, and then start applying that to your relationships, starting to apply that to your social relationships.

That’s it. This was a cool episode. It’s something that’s been on my mind. Hopefully, you found value in some of these nuggets. Go head over to There’s an episode page for every single episode. Within that page, you can find those links. I’m going to put another plugin for feedback and assessments. That assessment will take you probably ten minutes or so. That feedback is going to help me tremendously because I’m already spending a ton of time putting together content, putting together videos, putting together a course that I believe encompasses the philosophy of the book. It also encompasses the philosophy of the show and the different themes and topics we’ve had over the last few years. It encompasses it in an actionable, personalized way.

I’m excited for that to come out. I want to be as double, triple, quadruple accurate as possible. That’s only going to come from your feedback. Thanks a ton. Thanks for reading. I appreciate it. If you found value, pass it on to others. I spend money on this. I don’t make any money doing the show other than providing value to the other companies that I have. Share this with others, get the word out. These are things that I believe come back when you’re able to share value with others and they find value in it. It’s this compound effect. It always comes back to you. We’ll see you in the next episode. Take care. Bye.

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True Wealth: How To Navigate Toward What You Really Want In Life

TWS 65 | True Wealth


Wealth is found in experience and relative to the degree of our presence in that experience. The question is, how are you showing up in your daily experiences? On today’s podcast, Patrick Donohoe talks about what true wealth is and how you can navigate toward what you really want in life. Touching on the different aspects or archetypes of your personality, he explains how identifying and understanding the different aspects can help you show up in that archetype so you can enjoy, achieve, and succeed in life.

Watch the episode here:

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True Wealth: How To Navigate Toward What You Really Want In Life

Thank you for tuning into this episode. It’s going to be a short one but I appreciate the response to the last episode and your willingness to answer some questions for me. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, I had requested that you, the audience, would help me to design an online course specific to this audience. A lot of it is relevant to what we’ve discussed this 2020. Some of the topics and themes relating to what true wealth is. Of course, trying to figure out how to navigate toward what you want in life.

I’m up at our place in the mountains. We are on fall break for the kids and my brother and his family came out as well. We’re spending some time up here. It’s somewhat cold but nonetheless peaceful. I had an experience on the way up and that’s what I wanted to talk about for this episode. On the way up, we came up around 9:00, 10:00 at night and it’s about an hour drive outside of Salt Lake. There was a canyon that is somewhat busy during the day and this time of night, it was complete black. There weren’t any cars on the road as we were coming up which was very rare. Lots of animals are crossing the street, etc. At the end of the road, it’s about a 5, 6-mile road, there’s a T.

In one direction you go North into Wyoming, the other direction you go East. It goes on the other side of Park City and there were a bunch of sirens there. You can go 50, 60 miles an hour on this road. At the T, what had happened is the car that was crashed through this big wall didn’t see the stop sign and kept on going as if the road continued straight. I’m not sure what the outcome was, but given all of the ambulances, it was not pretty. The reason why I’m bringing that up is because sometimes, we’re wired to believe and live as if we had 50 years ahead of us or 100 years ahead of us.

We're wired to believe and live as if we have a hundred years ahead of us. Click To Tweet

We’re going to die at 95 but we don’t know what happens. Every day is different. Every day is dynamic. Our wiring and our patterns are similar. At the same time, our experiences can be completely different. Our environment is completely different but our patterns are the same. The topic I wanted to talk about was what wealth is in relation to experiences. I believe that wealth is found in experience and relative to the degree of our presence in that experience. My question to you is how are you showing up in your daily experiences? Are you showing up based on what your pattern has dictated? Human nature answers questions because of how prone we are to patterns and habitual behavior. We address the same questions and same situations in a similar way and I’m no exception.

That’s the example I’m going to give. In the past, whether it was a vacation, a trip, dinner with my wife, or being out with the kids, I had so much going on. I had emails I had to answer, text messages showing up, online messages, project in which I played a role, record this, try this, or do this. I had so much weighing on me and what it did is, it bled into all areas of my life. I found myself in some amazing places, whether vacation or trips and I didn’t enjoy them at all. It became frustrating because I was in these incredible places, I was able to be with the people that I love, and I wasn’t able to enjoy myself.

There was a teaching that I was exposed to Tony Robbins and some of the events I went through with him, and it took a few go-rounds for it to connect. I shared a little bit of that experience at the Platinum Group Finance Events. It was a February 2020 episode in which I talked about it but there was something I connected. It’s made a massive difference and I’ve been able to enjoy myself much more. There are still times in which my old patterns creep in. At the same time, I’m now present to that. I’m able to adapt and adjust so that I can take advantage of the experience and enjoy myself because, in the end, time is short. I look at my daughters and they’re grown, women.

TWS 65 | True Wealth

True Wealth: Wealth is found in experience and relative to the degree of our presence in that experience.


They’re in their teenage years, they have a couple of years left at home, and it pains me sometimes. The time has gone by so fast. Don’t get me wrong, there have been incredible experiences I’ve had with them. At the same time, I realized that my inability to adapt situationally has impacted the degree of happiness and fulfillment I have in those experiences. My point behind all of this is because money does not give you better experiences. Money does not give you this complete different mindset shift because you’re able to drive a certain car, go on vacation, or live in a neighborhood, etc.

It amplifies who you already are. That’s my point behind this idea of mindset first, your state first, your understanding of the miracle we have of living in 2020 with all of the technology, the communication capability, the medicine that we have, the understanding of ourselves based on biofeedback, or other means. Our ability to communicate with loved ones, we are able to live on, there’s much to be grateful for but society continues to find itself in dire straits as if the world was going to end.

My point is there are ways in which we can show up and capitalize on the experience of life. I believe that if you’re able to do that before you have a lot of money coming in and make it easier because the situations, problems, and challenges amplify because of financial wealth. This is the teaching that impacted me. Carl Jung is a psychologist, I’m not a psychologist by any means and I am fascinated by human behavior. What makes us tick? Why we do certain things? Why do we continue to do certain things? Why we do things that we know are wrong but still, we continue to do them?

Money does not just give you better experiences. It amplifies who you already are. Click To Tweet

We’re all subject to this to some degree but Carl Jung talked about these aspects or factions of our personality called archetypes. There are some primary archetypes that are out there. What I started to do is connect to the different aspects of my personality and be able to understand what aspect of personality is best suited for certain experiences that I had. Let me give you some examples. First off, let me explain the different archetypes. Carl Jung has many different ones, but there are some common ones, whether it’s in mythology or history. You have the king archetype, magician archetype, lover archetype, and warrior archetype. I’ve thought about this before. Most people show up as one of the three, I would say tier two archetypes, which is the magician, the lover, and the warrior.

I call these situational archetypes. King archetype is rare. I look at how I’ve shown up in the past and it’s either the warrior or the lover. What I started to realize is that tapping into my king, my sovereign archetype for women to be the queen archetype, it’s being able to understand that archetype is the leader. You can picture a good king and there are many different examples of it. They’re able to understand and lead the other three archetypes situationally so that when the magician needs to show up to have fun or to be creative, the magician shows up. If the warrior needs to show up because something has to be overcome, a fear or a challenge has to be broken through. The warrior is able to show up.

The lover is able to show up in times where compassion and empathy are needed. I look at the organization of these archetypes especially as I look at the different experiences and situations. I find myself in every day and then knowing my magician is the best to show up in this to have fun, to enjoy a night out, to enjoy a game, a board game, to be able to solve some problems, be creative, and be agile. The lover, when it comes to my family, neighbor, or someone that’s gone through a hard time. When I need to overcome something, conquer and push through, and fight through somebody or something, the warrior shows up. These archetypes have enabled me to understand myself better but also to be able to enjoy the everyday experiences that I have.

TWS 65 | True Wealth

True Wealth: There’s a power to being fully engaged and to play full out.


It’s going to be a short show but I’m going to end with a challenge. I want you number one, as it relates to the first story I explained, this car crash coming through the Canyon as I was coming up into the mountains is, to take 30 minutes in something that you have going on and be able to be as close to 100% present as possible. Present meaning you are completely engaged. There’s a power to being fully engaged and to play full out. The second challenge I have for you is to start to look inside yourself, inside your personality, and identify the magician in you, the fun, the happy-go-lucky, the creative and the agile part of your personality. Identify the lover side of your personality where you’re compassionate, loving, empathetic, and then identify the warrior inside of you.

The one who shows up, who is able to break through a wall if that’s what’s needed, but here’s the most important one, to start to identify the archetypical king, the sovereign, or the queen inside of you. The one, who rules cares about what’s right, who is noble. Not the dark or shadow side of that archetype or personality but the actual light side, the sovereign side. Identify these archetypes. Sometimes, people name them or associate them with characters in history that they have an affinity toward. Once you are able to identify those aspects or factions of your personality, it’s then identifying some situations in which you can show up in that archetypal side of your personality, enjoy, achieve, and succeed.

This is what’s worked for me and it’s a part of the course that I want to create. It’s going into a lot more detail when it comes to understanding your archetypes, being able to situationally apply them, enjoy, and thrive in certain experiences as opposed to winging it and figuring things out. I want to be light. I appreciate your attention. I hope you gained something from this challenge. We’d love to hear from you. Email me at Let me know about your experiences. That’s it for now. Talk to you next week.

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